The Last Drink In The Last Chance Saloon

It is roughly seventeen months since this project started. Despite all of the revelations from this blog, and from other ‘new media’ outlets, little has changed in the world of Scottish football. This might seem a strange claim given that the largest football club in the country has become insolvent and now sits on corporate death-row awaiting its execution. However, the major institutions that feed on the blood of Scottish football fans: the SFA; the SPL; and the newspapers- appear to have learned little from events in this time.

They still believe that the people who pay their wages are imbeciles. They still dish out fatuous lies and peddle disinformation as if Sir David Murray was still in his heyday. The hysterical exaggerations and tales of impending financial doom should be transparent to the businessmen who fill most of the Chairman roles at Scottish football clubs. Anyone with even a few minutes of business experience will see through the lies of the Scottish football establishment. These scare stories are not the issue. It is the dangling of long requested changes in the structure of the Scottish game that will present clubs from both the Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football League with a dilemma.

From their public statements, it is clear that the driving forces behind this attempt at league-rigging are SFA Chief Executive Stewart Regan and SPL Chief Executive Neil Doncaster. Despite being paid to promote the Scottish game, they have spent recent weeks trying to convince advertisers and TV companies that their product is worthless without someone representing Rangers’ legacy playing in the SFL1 next season. It is as if Sevco Ltd was a panacea and that this new club will be guaranteed promotion to the SPL within a single season.

Let us be in no doubt. Scottish football faces a period of turmoil and some financial belt-tightening regardless of what happens in any of the upcoming votes. (If Servco Ltd are forced to start in SFL3, the nattering nabobs of the mainstream Scottish sports press will doubtless blame every player transfer and setback on ‘internet bampots’ and shortsighted fans of so-called ‘diddy teams’). The Scottish game became unsustainable and unhealthily unbalanced towards just two clubs. In an era when it is easy to watch the best football from every country all week long, we need to extract the cancers that have been devouring our game for over twenty years rather than battling to preserve them. Among the assorted symptoms of the illness facing our game are:

  • Scottish football has failed to develop a single stand-out talent since the early 1980s
  • Scottish football has been spending more than it takes in for far too long
  • Scottish football has fallen far behind global standards in the quality of entertainment it offers

Scottish football had become dull and uninteresting for all but the fans of the two clubs that could entertain thoughts of ever winning the league.

There is a now a golden opportunity for creative minds to remake the game. Instead, we have intellectual pygmies telling us that everything in Scottish football is fantastic and must be saved at all costs. What is worth saving? Declining attendances? A terrible set of TV contracts that do not realise the full value of the Scottish game? A national team that cannot qualify for any international competitions? We have a game that is viewed with universal contempt for both its lack of technical quality and the lopsidedness of its top division. This is where our game finds itself almost three decades after the “Souness Revolution” started at Rangers. The false economies started by David Holmes, and placed on steroids by David Murray, eventually devastated all around it. Rangers embodied the ideas that financial might made right and reckless spending was the key to success. Their demise should be a cautionary tale to others to get their house in order. Instead, the Scottish football establishment wants to send the signal that if you are going to fail, make sure you do it on a spectacular scale: we will make everyone else carry you if it goes wrong.

Mr. Doncaster trained as a lawyer and has an MBA. If Scottish football was a case study at a business school, anyone submitting a paper that recommended crushing the last remnants of fairness in the game to prop up a failed old-order would not get a passing mark. Doncaster in particular is failing. (Funny that Messers Doncaster & Regan find it so easy to predict the effects of Sevco Ltd playing in SFL3, but could not use these same skills to anticipate Rangers’ implosion. Even when the aforementioned ‘internet bampots’ had warned years earlier of a crisis brewing at Ibrox, the men with the crystal ball today were unable to see something that was so obvious). When the dust settles on this disaster one way or another, one can only hope that Doncaster and Regan have absented themselves. It is clear that they lack the imaginations required to improve our game. Our hopes for restoring the thrill of Scottish football now rests on the men who run the clubs in the SPL and the SFL. We must hope that they have the backbone to stand-up to being bullied and the foresight to realise that all that is being dangled by Regan & Doncaster can be obtained anyway- without sacrificing the game and without the hired hands for whom this all appears to be just a job.

If fairness fails and Sevco Ltd is able to field a team in the SFL1 next season, it is for each fan to make an individual decision on whether it is worth returning to watch a game played with loaded dice. For those who do decide to go back (I am still undecided), something will still be missing in the game. An unfillable void will have opened. The men who will vote on this decision have to realise that they are not just voting on short-term revenues. They are going to irreparably alter the Scottish game whatever happens. Money will ebb and flow in football in proportion to the excitement and quality of the competition. If fans believe that there is no competition because a winner is preordained, money will leave and it will stay gone.



Trying something new. Bear with me if this turns out to be a bridge too far for my technical skills.

About rangerstaxcase
I have information on Rangers' tax case, and I will use this blog to provide the details of what Rangers FC have done, why it was illegal, and what the implications for what was (updated) one of the largest football clubs in Britain.

7,916 Responses to The Last Drink In The Last Chance Saloon

  1. where are the thought police when you need them? says:

    Angus says:
    18/07/2012 at 10:32 pm

    I hear what you’re saying Angus and I appreciate the manner in which you’ve said it too.

    I recognise the hurdles that would be in the way if this situation arises. But if it does I feel the SFA will be facing another test – which it needs to pass – as to how important they see both the making of atonement and the redemption processes. I feel that in this eventuality they will need to commit more time and money to these processes to make them effective.

    It’s a deep work that needs to be done and if the situation proves to have been as dire as is feared it cannot be allowed to be consigned to history with a dismissive, concluding remark (designed to draw a line under it all) of the type that says effectively … “enough of all this looking back – it’s time for us all to move on now….”

    Acceptance of the need for restitution (as far as is possible) is vital to reconciliation and it happens to be in the long-term interest of new Rangers if they want to be able – as Mr Green has said – “hold their heads high” in Europe (including that small north westerly corner of Europe that we call home….:-)).

  2. JFL says:

    Lord Wobbly says:

    18/07/2012 at 9:12 pm

    Sugar Daddy says:
    18/07/2012 at 8:28 pm

    If Doncaster is as bad as we fear at negotiating a fair deal out of Sky, ESPN & BBC, as bizarre as it seems, we are going to need to give him a hand.
    Sky Sports Pack is £21, ESPN is £10 with SSP or £13 stand alone.
    31 days cancellation time.
    Will you cancel your sports pack if Sky try and screw over Scottish football for doing the right thing?
    TU Yes, I want to help
    TD No, I just like to talk about it
    Option C ~ I don’t have a sports package. I’m with Virgin (the XL TV package) which includes ESPN as standard.
    Wobbly, I was in the same camp as you. I have Virgin XL precisely because it gave me Setanta and then ESPN. I did not take Sky sports as I had no interest in English football or giving Murdoch a penny of my money.

    But then BBC gave up on full Formula 1 coverage. So, all of a sudden, it was pay Virgin for Sky Sports or miss half the races. And of course, Sky being Sky, you need to pay for the whole package to get the F1 channel.

    Therefore the only money Sky get from me is the sports package after Virgin take their cut. So to get something (I am an F1 geek) I really want, I end up contributing to Murdoch and the EPL. I found it difficult to part with the £20 a month for that reason. I suspect I will find it just as painful to cancel it again if Sky do over Scottish football.

  3. john clarke says:

    SparTicketus says:
    18/07/2012 at 10:20 pm
    ..’Could be secured – but that sounds more like a loan. Surely, nobody else can pull off one of these Glazers/CW ” I’ll buy YOUR club with YOUR money” tricks.

    And doesn’t any new security need the approval of existing security holders ? Does that mean CW and Ticketus in addition to the existing consortium ? This is too complicated. I give up……’
    You’re probably right.

    It’s just that expectations of any kind of reasonable return on an investment of £1M must, in the circumstances in which Sevco finds itself, be a wee bit unrealistic, while the possibility of loss is maybe quite high..

    I had forgotten, mind you, that I heard the man say that on his part it was an emotional investment, and perhaps he was speaking truthfully.

    He might, unlike the Blue Knights and others, not be in it for the money, and be in that respect an honest man ( if marginally only a little less wise than Bomber).

  4. buckfastswallier says:

    Henry Clarson from earlier,

    Even after suffering some lovely gin, your post came across with a clarity that almost sobered me up.

    I suggest we are at a crossroads that cuts across a lot of people’s life’s.

    People like David Murray evidence not only their personal psychopathy, but at the same time illustrate how that mentality is given sustenance by the feedback it gets from the fans.

    We are all psychopaths, or potential nutters, given this understanding.

  5. threeamigos says:

    Well put Henry Clarson.All or nothing.

  6. tommy the hat says:

    Ooohhh….previous effort in moderation hell seemingly (??) Anyways…quick re-edit…

    You have to wonder where the farce ends. Giovanni Di Stefano? A first-class crook that fled to Yugoslavia to escape fraud charges in the UK, befriending infamous war criminals in the process, a plethora of fraud charges and international warrants followed Gio’s later antics and then he ends up at Dundee F.C. Bringing with him a cunning plan to buy ‘big name’ players and sell them on at big profit.

    Problem is, just being Dundee F.C. (no real coverage outside of Scotland, and arguably, really Tayside) meant they werent going to command the (desperately hopeful) expected prices Gio told the brothers Marr to expect and they lost a fortune, going into administration and the subsequent issues that followed.

    Is it not odd that some of the ‘big’ names eventually ended up at RFC (deceased) ?

    But Di Stefano?? Hahaha….who next??!

    Guess it’s not so odd considering Minty’s EBT scheme was in full swing at Ibrox, and incidently, that little rat faced cretin Novo is not just a repugnant individual, he must also be a simpleton talking the bollox he has of late. One of Jack Irvine’s lackies gives the disgusting little runt a platform to project hate and bitterness, as they have with one or two others of similar mindset.

    The Daily Record have incredible form for this, always have (increasing ten-fold since Neil Lennon became coach) and it’s became a particulary nasty habit, Mark ‘half chewed caramel face’ Hately, Craig ‘half chewed caramel face’ Burley and now Nacho ‘half chewed caramel face’ Novo. Clowns the lot of them and their speak is the wlld deluded fantasy of FF and Leggat being put into print. What does this paper exist for? I can’t wait till the day I learn the Daily Record are no more. Do NOT be fooled by their back-peddling and sudden realisation of journalsitc morality, it’s all! Always will be, for as long as the Daily Record employ and laud the likes of Traynor and Jackson and as long as they take editorial guidance from Media House and slimey Jack Irvine then it will always be the preserve of the WATP mob…even if said peepil think otherwise, and if the actualy do, then the WATP mob really must be the most uninteligent people on the planet and with idiots such as rat face Nacho? Enough said….

    The peepil (Leggat in particular) hate Lawwell because he is credible, highly respected and quite good at his job, which in turn has been good (aye, ok…centre halfs and Mowbray accepted!!) for Celtic F.C.

    A credible, well run and much better run CFC than RFC could ever hope for, which is very contrary to the ideology of the peepil and they absolutely hate Lawwell for simply being good at his job and carrying (deserved) respect of the football community, in stark contrast to the countless crooks that had been running their now deceased club into the ground.

    The peepil liked it better when CFC had less credible management and have found the whole Lawwell thing quite hard to take, the MSM know Lawwell is too smart for them, so they attack Neil Lennon under the auspices of an ‘fuming ginger irishman’ and ‘being a bad loser’ etc…it’s all nonsense, Neil is no worse than Sir Cardigan Of Brown Brogues ever was. Neil is genuine, speaks his mind and does it without having the benefit of the MSM firmly behind him, very much unlike Sir Cardigan, Neil also won a league title without having to resort to cheating.

    I know i have been going on about the DR, perhaps an unhealthy obsession even setting in but DO NOT BUY THIS PAPER!!! Read it online if (for whatever reason…) you are missing Jabba and Jangles but DO NOT BUY THE RAG whatever you do!!!

  7. JFL says:

    Henry Clarson says:

    18/07/2012 at 9:58 pm

    Regarding the debate on what do about the championship titles which must be taken from Rangers, this is really not difficult.
    Every game in which Rangers fielded ineligible players is recorded as a 3-0 victory for their opponents. The points are totalled up for the season. The team which has the most points is awarded the title.

    I’ve paid tens of thousands of pounds over the years to see my team competing for the championship title and I’ll be damned if I’m going to settle for seeing an asterisk taking the place of a title which my team won fair and square.
    The only reason that those titles weren’t awarded to the correct team at the end of each season is because the game was so riddled with corruption that nobody enforced rules that would have deprived Rangers of their unfair advantage.

    Successive SFA and SPL officials came from Ibrox and allowed this cheating to go unchecked. Successive directors at Rangers FC, at best neglected their responsibilities to ensure that their business was on the straight and narrow. At worst, they actively perpetuated the cheating. The bank which happily turned a blind eye to Murray’s financial recklessness and – as is now becoming clearer and clearer – sheer criminality happily wiped other clubs off the face of the earth and threatened others, including mine, with winding up procedures.

    And all this time, I was forking out over a thousand pounds per season to see my team competing in tournaments which were supposed to be fair. It was bad enough to be seething with frustration at what I knew at the time were biased refereeing performances; now that it is apparent that the beneficiaries of this bias were not even eligible to compete, never mind take the honours, the frustration has hardened into a righteous and completely justified anger.

    This institutionalised fraud will not be rectified with an asterisk.

    The very first principle of atonement is to make restitution as far as that is possible. The very minimum requirement is to return what has been stolen to its rightful owners. In the case of at least five titles, that means presenting those titles to the team which won the most points in accordance with the Laws of the Game of Association Football and in line with the rules and regulations of the SFA and SPL. Absolutely nothing less than that will do.

    And that should only be a starting point.
    There is no room for compromises here.
    There is a constant creep in the mainstream media towards an assumption that Rangers have suffered enough and that those who want to see them pay in full for their colossal wrongdoing are being vindictive. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    The issue is purely about fairness. It is fundamentally unfair that hardened, habitual cheats should receive any leniency when those who did nothing wrong whatsoever were seriously disadvantaged, suffered considerable loss of prestige, were wrongly deprived of sporting honours and were financially damaged. In some cases, the financial damage was a mortal blow.

    An asterisk won’t cut it.
    Henry, I have repeated your post in full as I agree completely.

    I have never hidden the fact I am a Celtic fan. As far as I am concerned my club deserves every title that was denied them if Rangers played ineligible players. Removing them is not enough. We all know that Rangers fans will continue to say that they are part of their history. The history books need to show more than that they were removed. It needs to show someone else won them!

    The issue of the prize money etc is a red herring. Whether clubs have a legal claim for damages doesn’t revolve around the trophies being redistributed. It is determined by whether Rangers cheated. Removing the titles and not redistributing them doesn’t prevent those claims.

    People have mentioned Strachan and Mowbray. I ask one question of all the Celtic fans on here today that have said they are happy just to see the titles removed. What if it transpires that all of this goes as far back as 96/97. Are you really saying that you would not wish to see Tommy Burns credited with a title that he rightly deserves?

  8. Ragers Against The Machine says:

    The Club an the Company are intrinsically linked, you can’t have one without the other.

    If a Club cheats to win a competition, then by definition, they have cheated someone out of winning it. Therefore the titles should be awarded to the “runner-up” with perhaps an asterisk qualified with “Awarded through integrity”.

  9. enough is enough says:

    From RM

    “The Napoli president Aurelio De Laurentiis, is considering the idea of buying a club abroad. The choice of the filmmaker is on the historic Scottish club of Glasgow Rangers, Scotland, holder of 54 titles, 33 Scottish Cups, 27 Scottish League Cups and one Cup Winners’ Cup, making them the team with the most titles in the world. However, there have recently been financial woes that led to bankruptcy and winding up on June 14, 2012. After the company was forced to start from the fourth division, there has been a mourning from the whole football world on the importance of the club.”

    We have all been duped!

    This has been a Dino de Horrendous production all along.

    How foolish do we look now eh?

    Please don’t tell me its been directed by oldgold ………

  10. campsiejoe, 11.06pm:

    “Do the Sevco supporters really believe, that had Tesco bought the same physical assets as Green, the club would continue to exist ?”

    However imprecisely worded the argument, I don’t think it’s the physical assets that they feel empower them to claim that the club continues to exist. (I am, as always, open to correction on that.) Rather, it’s the fact that Sevco bought the right to use the intellectual property, memberships (legitimately or otherwise), and “goodwill” of the business.

    As an example, compare two clubs who currently play only a few miles apart: Clyde and Airdrie United. Clyde as a club exists continuously despite changing physical property repeatedly, and potentially doing so again in the near future; it’s still the same club, with a continuous history, playing in the same colours, using the same badge. Airdrie Utd on the other hand, despite having in 2002 bought over an almost forty year old Clydebank club, consider the club to have begun in 2002; and, despite playing at the same stadium and possibly (I’m not sure on this) training at the same location, Airdrie United are not a continuation of Airdrieonians.

    So yes, had Rangers sold all of the physical property to Tesco, their fans would still claim that the club exists. This is no different to Arsenal selling Highbury, or Clyde leaving Shawfield. If a new club started playing at Ibrox (or Shawfield!) with different colours though, with a different badge, and with no connection to the old club, it wouldn’t be the same club. Likewise, if a relaunched Rangers in the same colours with the same website, the same badge, and the same memberships was forced to play its home games at St Mirren Park, or Garscube, or wherever, it could be claimed (rightly or wrongly) that it is the same club. It’s the right to use the intellectual property and goodwill that enables them to claim that the club continues, not the physical assets.

    At least, that’s my understanding of things.

  11. yousbuythepies! says:

    Holy Parallel dimensions batman!
    Taking the first cheat season and changing results to 0-3 would result in relegation.
    Therefore all subsequent titles, cups etc. would go as a result. Cant wait for the marvel comic/ film etc.

  12. Project Walliams says:

    I’m not sure if it’s right that any trophies handed back should be given to the runner up.
    It’s one thing to put an asterix after the name on the cup, but to grind out the name of oldco, etch in the name Hearts, Ayr United, Celtic etc, repair the silverware,
    Will lead to only one thing – the Bears will claim they are Tinted Titles

    I’ll get ma coat…..

  13. Gully says:

    Henry Clarson says:

    18/07/2012 at 9:58 pm
    Henry, does your unwillingness to compromise mean that the Champions League competitions in the affected years will also have to be replayed?

    An asterisk is the best compromise, for compromise is necessary.

  14. captain haddock says:

    yousbuythepies, sorry, the TD was me by mistake, stupid phone keyboard!
    The logic is sound though, robin, after the first cheating season relegation there would be a whole new reality! An Alternative Universe League! It’s late I should be asleep if I’m writing this drivel. Its a scam worthy of the riddler or the joker, or the Reganer! Goodnight all.

  15. Lord Wobbly says:

    SCOTTISH football has proved it CAN still attract TV cash — with BBC ALBA set to screen newco Rangers’ first ever game.

    Charles Green’s side will kick off a new era in the Ramsdens Cup against Brechin at Glebe Park.
    The game has been put back 24 hours to Sunday July 29 with the Beeb’s Gaelic language channel set to screen it.
    Gers chief Green has still to sort out SFA membership before the tie can go ahead.
    Brechin secretary Angus Fairlie said: “It’ll be all-ticket.
    We’re selling corporate hospitality. It would be nice to make some money from the game.

  16. Andy says:

    FF foaming at the mouth

  17. Lord Wobbly says:

    RANGERS are plotting a fresh swoop for former St Johnstone striker Fran Sandaza — if their signing ban is lifted.

    But they will need to fight off Hearts, Hibs and Saints to land the Spaniard, who has been without a club since quitting McDiarmid Park in May.
    Sandaza saw a move to Ibrox fall through in January.
    But he remains a top target for Gers manager Ally McCoist as he tries to rebuild his decimated squad.
    And a shock move to Ibrox could appeal to the 27-year-old hitman, even though Gers will kick-off next season in the Third Division.
    Ibrox chief Charles Green is locked in talks with the SFA over sanctions relating to his Sevco’s membership application.
    A key point is whether the 12-month signing embargo imposed by the SFA in April, and later overturned at the Court of Session, will remain in place.
    However if Gers get the green light to sign players, Sandaza will join former Hearts duo Ian Black and Craig Beattie on McCoist’s wanted list.
    Saints boss Steve Lomas is still hoping to tempt Sandaza into a Perth U-turn, but the Jambos and Hibs are keen too.

  18. Thornlyboy says:

    enough is enough @11.42: Your posting of the RM extract (ironic, surely, or is irony still banned?) just illustrates perfectly why all the ‘tainted’ titles ((c) Mr Hate-ley) need to be stripped, never mind re-awarded. This vainglorious ‘never mind the quality, feel the width’ approach to trophy numbers is juvenile and stupid. I have always maintained that the loss of these trophies will cut much deeper to the quick of the WATP mentality than anything else.

  19. Lord Wobbly says:

    Yup….yet another Rangers fan who doesn’t get it…

    After today’s news of Rangers potentially being stripped of their league titles and Scottish Cup wins, Rangers fan Alasdair McKillop states that Rangers should not be stripped of their titles as the club is not responsible for the crime committed by those individuals who are ultimately responsible.

  20. Para Handy says:

    john clarke says:
    18/07/2012 at 9:07 pm
     1 0 Rate This
    Para Handy says:
    18/07/2012 at 8:31 pm
    ‘John, if I may be so presumptuous to call you by your first name?’

    I’ve been called a whole lot of things, so it’s a treat to be called John.

    And on the subject of names, there was I thinking you had chosen yours in homage to Roddy MacMillan/ Neil Munro rather than through your military connection!
    Ma Mammy’s, Mammy’s Daddy was also known as Hugh Foulis…

    But I am also proud to have served, as did “Hugh’s” son, Hugh Adam Munro, who died serving in WW1.

  21. reilly1926 says:

    Gio seems to be getting some results.


  22. Lord Wobbly says:

    Blue Pitch Holdings are a company formed by clients of BDO
    Stoy Hayward whose aims are to make short term
    investments and acquire assets

    At undervalue then to sell. BPH also have on board members
    of BDO Stoy Hayward who are insolvency practitioners and
    have information

    Regarding companies that are going down.. They then
    identify those and use their friends to invest .. D&P do similar

    So it would appear that the majority shareholder is not in it
    for the long term but provable loaned some money on return
    for real security

  23. tommy the hat says:

    League titles should be recorded as won by the team that finished runners-up. Cup competitions are a more complex affair by way of the tournament structure, a ‘no winner’ for the seasons when the cheats won is the only logical way really.

    Guess it could be argued that the league should be void also, RFC cheating did have a bearing on all other teams too it could be said, but the factor of influence is much less and what if the league runner-up was marginal, like last day of the season deciders, with 3rd place team miles away, it makes the argument of completely voiding that particular season a bit daft.

    I don’t care personaly, i’m happy enough with them just being stripped of cheated honours won and their historical honours ‘sheet’ updated to reflect such but if the recent antics of the SFA are anything to go by, they will will be in the process of having meetings to discuss what to do in 5 years time. Campbell Ogilvie is still there and won’t be having any of this ‘stripping titles’ malarky i’m sure, well…if they are suddenly stripped of EBT titles…does it not make Ogilvies position at the SFA even more bizarre?

    I can’t work out just what Regan is up to, it looks, very obviously, like the SFA are suddenly aware of their own rules and public sentiment…but it wasn’t the case only last week…who honestly do some of these morons think they are kidding?? It’s just laughable really, looks like complicity came to a spluttering stop when the vote was for SFL3 and certain folk decided it was high time to be leaving Dodge…make no mistake, Regan and the SFA wanted Cheat F.C’s zombie in the SPL, hardly a revelation but that they very obviously did is astonishing. Regan hasn’t suddenly developed a spine, whoever it is, and who has now buggered off (or soon to) because of SFL 3 is the reason why Regan is trying to look competent…all of a sudden…aye, really, Stewart??

    Anyways, if and when the tainted honours are rescinded, i expect league titles to be awarded to runners-up and cups be made void. European competition is a matter for another authority, the SFA can only report to UEFA, its up to the fat corrupt pigs in Nyon to apply their rule of law…and if they aren’t being too busy stuffing their faces…I guess they might take some notice….but keeping focus on domestic affairs is all our authorities can really be expected to do.

  24. USMac says:

    The stripping titles issue is such a no-win issue for the authorities that one can only expect them to say that they are looking into it to keep criticism at bay. Once the season starts and people’s interests are distracted, the issue will fall into the abyss, never to be heard of again.

  25. Private Land says:

    JFL says:

    18/07/2012 at 11:41 pm

    I have never hidden the fact I am a Celtic fan. As far as I am concerned my club deserves every title that was denied them if Rangers played ineligible players. Removing them is not enough. We all know that Rangers fans will continue to say that they are part of their history. The history books need to show more than that they were removed. It needs to show someone else won them!

    The issue of the prize money etc is a red herring. Whether clubs have a legal claim for damages doesn’t revolve around the trophies being redistributed. It is determined by whether Rangers cheated. Removing the titles and not redistributing them doesn’t prevent those claims.

    People have mentioned Strachan and Mowbray. I ask one question of all the Celtic fans on here today that have said they are happy just to see the titles removed. What if it transpires that all of this goes as far back as 96/97. Are you really saying that you would not wish to see Tommy Burns credited with a title that he rightly deserves?


    Although I see where you are coming from, I think there is an emotional tugging involved here that doesn’t assist in getting a clear look at the issue. For what’s it’s worth, I am 99.9% certain that Tommy Burns would have said “stick yer titles!”, but that is only my opinion based on my knowledge of TB. Others who knew him better than I may disagree.

    The TB thing is a red herring though. Because Scottish football is, or was, a two-horse race, it seems intuitively safe to say that Celtic would have won the last seven of RFC’s titles. However, after the first title, who is to say a chastened Rangers would not have changed for the better earlier? How do we know that in the absence of Rangers, had they been relagated after the first season of 0-3 defeats, other teams would not have been galvanised as Celtic downsized and wider opportunities became available (the same argument many of us have presented today as the optimistic future for the game in Scotland)? What about the effect on teams who didn’t get players booked, sent off or injured against Rangers, or teams who held on to their best players a bit longer because Rangers had stopped spending earlier, so not buying up the best local talent?

    In other words, I simply don’t agree that there is any scientific case to made for Celtic or any other club to be awarded these honours. There are so many variables, I don’t see how we can make sense out of the alternative scenarios. For this reason, I think awarding titles and other honours is unsafe, and would not be awarded on sporting merit.

    But for me the killer equation is this; RFC by their cheating prevented a fair competition from taking place. Short of ‘playing a let’ which is impossible in this instance, we just have to accept that RFC compromised the integrity of the whole competition for the years they cheated. You can’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again. So acknowledge the swindle, remove the honours from the list of the cheats and move on.

    Accepting any honour after it had been won by RFC is in my view cheap, and although I haven’t spoken to anyone who directly involved as a player in the timeframe concerned, every single ex-player I have spoken to in the last few days has said what Tommy Burns would have said.

    As much as it would be an excellent piece of GIRUY-ness in the direction of Sally & Sandy in particular, I cannot believe that we are on the cusp of an outcome, which strips them of the titles they cheated to win, has seen them disappear into oblivion and their legacy club forced to start in D3.

    RTC did not envisage an outcome anything as favourable to the integrity of the sport at any time in the last year and a half. I certainly didn’t. I understand that people have strong feelings about this, but this is one of the issues where we seem to be divided.

    I don’t think it is a going to the wall issue. If they award the titles to Celtic, I’m not gonna hold up my hands in horror or take to the streets in protest, but despite my current lack of faith in the motives of the Celtic board on related issues, I’d be truly astonished if Celtic accepted.

    Perhaps this is one of the battles which won’t be won, in a war in which we have won more than we have lost; in a war we appear to be winning by quite a long way.

    Let’s everyone go out there and, in the absence of the cheats, win our own titles and trophies in the knowledge that to a significant degree, we have cleaned up the game.

  26. James says:

    I could recommend some really good therapists?
    D’Nile, D’Nile, that long winding river in Egypt.
    ( you might have to look it up!)
    First and last time I feed a troll.

  27. miki67 says:

    In an unintentional way the demise of rfc and the rise of Sevco5088 could do Scottish football a favour if it results in a transparent and equitable distribution of monies and a restructuring of the domestic game which accurately reflects the true state of footballing finances,and gives rise to a resurgence on reliance of homegrown talent,actively encouraged and scouted. I am sure there are many youngsters with exemplary footballing skills in Scotland. And with the way the entire financial world ‘out there’ is going,every country’s leagues are in for belt tightening,sooner or later……even the bloated EPL,a bubble waiting to burst if ever I saw one.
    We could be leaders in this trend.
    Now,I am a lifelong Celtic supporter,but I recognise that a club with the pull of Rangers (whatever they are called from now on) could actually financially benefit the smaller clubs,should they choose to do so,as they are now in that league i.e. smaller than what they are accustomed to. They could negotiate,for the third division,a stunning tv deal,and revitalise those clubs when people actually see that they play entertaining football.
    There is nothing wrong with dreaming,and there is nothing wrong with wanting a better way forward out of a shameful debacle,and there is nothing wrong with redemption after disgrace.
    And I’ll say it again I am a Celtic fan,but I have the interest of the game I love at heart,too,and if we all want it to survive in Scotland,there has to be light at the end of what has been a very dark tunnel.

  28. stunney says:

    Rangers newco: Dunfermline still seeking reasoning for SPL snub as Craig Mather invests in Gers

    Dunfermline chairman John Yorkston has not ruled out legal action over decision (SNS)

    Published on Thursday 19 July 2012 00:00

    DUNFERMLINE chairman John Yorkston said he is resigned to his club playing in the First Division this coming season, but

    he has not yet ruled out the possibility of a legal challenge against the Scottish Premier League’s decision to promote Dundee.

    Yorkston is frustrated that the SPL has not told his club its reasons for inviting last season’s First Division runners-up to replace Rangers rather than reinstating relegated Dunfermline.

    But he will not seek to reverse the decision or take any action that holds up the league season, with the SPL due to kick off on 4 August.

    “We are now resigned to playing in the SFL,” said Yorkston. “Any challenge that we do would be against the decision for us not to play in the SPL now. We’re not going to be the club that holds everybody up by appealing and delaying the start of the leagues.”

    SPL chief executive Neil

    Doncaster said on Monday that Dundee were chosen on “sporting merit”.

    However, Yorkston said: “We contacted the SPL to ask what the sporting merit was that they decided upon to put Dundee into the Premier League. We’re still waiting on a response. I find it very strange. Probably, they don’t have an answer to give us.

    “We were originally told we would be told in two weeks which is once the competitive games have started. You’re now telling us we’re not going to get an answer. Obviously it makes it very difficult when we’re working out what we’re going to do.

    “[They may feel] that if you don’t know the reason you can’t appeal against that reason. But we have to speak to our legal folk and see what they make of this latest development. We’ve been kept out of the SPL and we haven’t been told why.”

    As the dust starts to settle on the SPL’s decision, Dundee chief executive Scot Gardiner posted a statement on the club’s website yesterday hailing the club’s promotion. “It was great news for the club, great news for the

    players and most importantly great news for the fans,” he said. “They’ve had seven years of backing their team through thick and thin in the First Division – some pretty thin times and some pretty hairy experiences – one of the first things we all thought about here was this is amazing for the fans, that’s absolutely genuine – it’s what they deserve.”

    Despite the obvious positives of being promoted to the SPL, Gardiner revealed how pre-season plans were interrupted by the uncertainty surrounding the club. He said: “The football side of it was basically brought to a halt, we’d gone out and signed the targets that we had identified but still had three or four we were hoping to bring in, but when it became apparent that the Rangers thing was unfolding as it was, we stopped everything dead.”

    Even on hearing the news that the club would be playing top-flight football for the first time since 2005, Gardiner was still aware of the potential ramifications of the lost time.

    “For a start, the SPL season starts a week earlier than the SFL, SPL sides started pre-season around ten days ahead of our players, everything that we had planned for pre-season, our schedule was for us to peak on 11 August and now it’s going to be a week before that,” he said. Meanwhile, Nottingham-based businessman Craig Mather has confirmed his investment in the Rangers newco. Charles Green, chief executive of the Ibrox club, revealed yesterday that Mather has invested more than £1 million for a share of about 10 per cent.

    Mather, who is the managing director of Simply Sport Management and runs a manufacturing business, hopes his contacts can help the club move forward. A statement from Mather on the Rangers website read: “I am delighted to have invested in The Rangers Football Club with my business partner Guy Gisborne. In addition to the financial investment, Simply Sport Management specialises in youth players. I am confident that my colleagues and contacts within this field will prove invaluable.

    “I look forward to being part of the team rebuilding this

    fantastic club.”

  29. stunney says:

    The Rumour Mill: Wednesday’s football transfer news and gossip

    Maurice Edu could be on the way to Valencia. Picture: Ian Rutherford

    Published on Wednesday 18 July 2012 10:20

    In today’s Rumour Mill: Rangers ‘could be stripped of titles’ over tax case; Celtic seek defensive cover; Hibs midfielder to join Blackpool; plus the rest of the day’s football news and gossip.

    Document details possible Rangers penalties

    A document drafted after talks between the SFA, SPL, SFL and representatives of Charles Green’s Sevco reportedly included a plan to strip Rangers of five SPL titles and four Scottish Cups. The secret penalties, designed to punish the Employee Benefit Trust tax dodge in the event the club were placed in the First Division, would also have involved the one-year transfer embargo and an order to pay Rangers’ old football debts to clubs in Scotland and Europe. The SPL will meet on August 10 to discuss EBTs and “dual contracts”. (Record)

    • Maurice Edu is poised for a £300,000 move to Valencia as Rangers cash in on their last remaining assets. The American international is weighing up his options but a move to La Liga is understood to be his preferred option. (Express)

    • Rangers manager Ally McCoist could face disciplinary action over his comments regarding the panel that handed Rangers a 12-month transfer embargo. (Scotsman)

    • Charles Green has revealed he has spent the past three months moving from safe house to safe house amid fans’ protests, but has now finally moved into his own flat. (Sun)

    • Sky and two rival broadcasters have contacted Peterhead over rights to broadcast their home match against Rangers on August 11. (Record)

    • Former Celtic captain Tom Boyd has blamed any damage to the reputation of Scottish football solely on Rangers following their recent financial woes and subsequent drop to the Third Division. (Scotsman)

    • SFA chief executive Stewart Regan has quit Twitter after being bombarded with abuse from disgruntled football supporters. (Scotsman)

    • John Brown has claimed he has the support of former Rangers captain Barry Ferguson in his bid to help supporters gain control of the club. (Express)

  30. stunney says:

    THURSDAY 19 JULY 2012

    Glasgow Cup proposed as vehicle for Old Firm fixture

    Michael Grant
    Chief football writer

    STAGING full-scale Old Firm games in this season’s Glasgow Cup will be discussed at a meeting of the Glasgow Football Association next week.

    The tournament has already been scheduled to continue as an under-17s event for the coming campaign but that has yet to be ratified by the Scottish Football Association.

    When the Glasgow FA holds a scheduled meeting next week, there will be talks on whether to seek a change to the competition in order to guarantee Celtic versus Rangers games at senior level in the coming months, assuming Rangers newco are granted SFA membership to play football at all.

    The SFA and representatives of Rangers newco held a second day of discussions over the membership application yesterday but have still to reach a resolution. The SFA want the newco club to accept sanctions relating to the oldco, and the governing body also wants more information on who is in the consortium fronted by Charles Green. Talks will continue today.

    Unless the clubs are drawn in the cup competitions, Celtic and Rangers newco are not scheduled to play each other until 2015 at the earliest, and only then if the newco gains three consecutive promotions through the Scottish Football League divisions. That could give the Glasgow FA a unique platform to stage the derby and potentially generate lucrative television rights to one or more derbies.

    “We have had the competition in different formats over the years, it is constantly under review,” said John Taylor, secretary of the Glasgow FA. “The reason for going to under-19s and then under-17s level for the past few years was simply that it was harder for the Old Firm to get dates into their schedules. So we’ve had a commitment to promote youth football in the city instead and it’s been a great tournament for the youth teams. The coaches are still enthusiastic about that.”

    The Glasgow Cup has not been held as a genuine first-team event since the mid-1980s, notably when more than 40,000 watched the Old Firm final of 1986, which gave Graeme Souness his first trophy as Rangers’ player-manager. Subsequently it began to slip way down the two clubs’ priorities.

    Both Celtic and Rangers’ representatives will have their say next week, though, and the absence of four league derbies each season – each of which guarantees a capacity crowd – could lead to a move to resurrect the Glasgow Cup as a senior event. Partick Thistle, Clyde and Queen’s Park are the other Glasgow FA member clubs.

    Meanwhile, lawyers acting for Dunfermline Athletic have formally requested an explanation of the SPL’s decision to hand Dundee the “Club 12” place vacated by Rangers. It is understood it may take up to a fortnight for a response to be forthcoming and chairman John Yorkston will pursue an explanation and potentially financial compensation, without attempting to block Dundee’s promotion.

    “We need to get on with the league,” said Yorkston. “There has been enough turmoil and we don’t want to cause a delay to the season or it could all end in more farce. We have already been placed at a sporting disadvantage by the unnecessary wait we had to find out that Dundee were to be invited in. It may be that we pursue financial compensation instead.”

  31. stunney says:

    THURSDAY 19 JULY 2012

    If rules were broken, take Rangers’ titles, says Lennon

    Ronnie Cully
    Senior Sports Writer

    Neil Lennon believes that Rangers should be stripped of five league titles and four Scottish Cups, if they are found guilty of illegally using Employment Benefit Trusts.

    The Scottish Premier League will consider evidence on dual contracts and EBTs at a meeting on August 10, and a commission will decide what punishment should then be applied.

    This could amount to expunging the titles won by Rangers in 2002/03, 2004/05, 2008/09, 2009/10 and 2010/11 from the records. In each of those seasons, Celtic finished as runners-up and Lennon is of the opinion that, if the Ibrox side’s title wins are annulled, the records must be amended to show that the team which finished second is credited as champions.

    In terms of the Scottish Cup, it would mean that beaten finalists, Celtic (2002), Dundee (2003), Queen of the South (2008) and Falkirk (2009), would be awarded the silverware.

    That would mean Celtic would have 48 championships, bringing them to within one of Rangers’ overall haul.

    Lennon said that removing titles and handing them to the runners-up occurs in other sports, including cycling and athletics, when a winner has subsequently been found to have broken the rules.

    “I will see what the commission finds but, if they are found to have broken the rules, then they should be stripped of their titles,” said the Celtic manager, who lifted five league trophies as a player at Parkhead.

    “It will not change what has gone on in the past, but I suppose there will be a sort of moral victory, in that respect.

    “It’s not going to change my life now, by any stretch of the imagination, but it would be good to be changed for historical reference.”

    When asked is the title should go to the team which finished in second, Lennon replied: “Yes”.

    However, he explained the implications fall much further than simply depriving other clubs of the success they were due. “At that time, it might have cost players contracts and bonuses, managers their jobs and might have relegated teams. There are so many ripple effects to it,” he said.

    “Again, you go back to the integrity of the game. Was it there? If not, then it should be investigated. That is all we ask for. We’re in the game for the glory, and then the money comes with it.

    “The more successful you are, the more money you get. But, when you are a kid growing up, all you want to do is to play football for a big club and to win things. That never changes.”

    Lennon is not interested in acquiring medals for any titles which are awarded retrospectively to his club. “I can’t get that title or feeling back and, like I said, it won’t make a huge dent on my life from here on in,” he said. “It would a lot better on my cv, though. I wouldn’t want the medals, just the recognition. That would be enough.”

    Lennon, in line with everyone else connected with Celtic, has previously been very reluctant to comment on the investigation into Rangers’ EBTs, but believes the time is right to speak up as the SPL prepare to deliver their findings to the commission. He makes the point that other sports are much more willing to redistribute prizes won illegally.

    “Six months ago, [Alberto] Contador was stripped of the [2010] Tour de France title and it was given to Andy Schleck. That is the right way to do it,” he said.

    Of more immediate concern for Lennon will be the form of his side during their pre-season tour to Germany. Concerns had been raised about the fallow period his strikers had endured since alighting in Germany, only for both Gary Hooper and Anthony Stokes to respond with goals in a win over VfR Aalen on Tuesday.

    The arrival of the goals came as a relief to Lennon – as well as the strikers themselves – as the quality of opposition will improve markedly over the coming weeks.

    Celtic will face Eredivisie champions Ajax on Saturday, before meetings with Norwich City and Internazionale. The small matter of a Champions League qualifier then follows for the Parkhead side.

    It is a formidable run of fixtures but Thomas Rogne is confident the Celtic forwards will have refined their scoring touch by then.

    The defender is only 22, but he has been around long enough to understand it takes no more than a second for the men in the front line to click into gear.

    “For strikers, it is more about the day, how they feel when they wake up, if their shoes are tied the right way, stuff like that,” said Rogne.

    Meanwhile, Celtic are checking on an injury to Beram Kayal, who came off at half-time in the game against Aalen.

    The Israeli internationalist is currently being assessed by the club’s medical staff to establish the extent of the problem.

  32. Seamus says:

    Many thanks for the papers, you’re an angel ;-).

  33. stunney says:

    The very, very best of luck to St Johnstone as they prepare for what looks like a pretty tough assignment in Turkey against Eskisehirspor. As one who fondly remembers the fine Saints side of the early seventies (I was at one game they won 8-1 at Firhill, and was in attendance at, and well remember, the very severe test they gave Celtic in a League Cup final), it is good to see them back in Europe, and I hope they’re able to acquit themselves well. Steve Lomas is a fine young manager and I wish him and his players—and the estimable Ms Sarah Leyden—all the best for their Europa League campaign.

  34. johnnym says:

    Saw a bit of a programme about Moments That Shocked The Olympics last night. The clip of Ben Cheat Johnson winning the 100 metres was accompanied by the well known song ‘Simply The Best’ – The Cheats Anthem ….a tainetd title if ever there was one

  35. ExiledCelt says:

    Wonder if Tina Turner will be echoing around a 3/4 empty stadium in November on a frosty afternoon for the Sevco Nomates versus Annan clash……….

    Simply the Best, better than all the rest – does not tie in with mid table SFL3 spot with no Messi or hover pitches……

    Bit like hearing Kettering fans singing “we’ re by far the greatest team the world has ever seen…….”

    Brass neck and al that!

  36. timmy says:

    The 3-0 defeat rule only really applies when dealing with 1 or 2 games. With cheating as long as this, they usually just award it too the runners up.

  37. Geoff says:

    Leave the titles unawarded.

    I mean, it’s lovely that people want to posthumously award the wonderful Tommy Burns with a title, but I think he’s past caring now.
    What next, resurrection for everyone who’s died meawhile so they can see the titles marked in every official publication they would have beeen reading at the time?

    Rangers have to be punished, removing all tainted titles/cup wins is a good start – anyone with a couple of active braincells will be able to look at the name alongside the awaded titles (Celtic) and easily understand that the * Unwarded will be for someone else who’s name is ominously absent otherwise.

  38. Stu says:

    Lord Wobbly says:

    19/07/2012 at 12:24 am

    Credit for McCoist where it’s due – he did tell Sandaza not to come to Ibrox back in January because he was just going to be used as a PR stunt. Of course, his behaviour since has put a bit of a taint on that….

  39. slimshady61 says:

    Surely any titles stripped from the corpse should be given to the rightful victor, i.e. John Terry?

  40. Stu says:

    Private Land says:

    19/07/2012 at 1:53 am

    I think you are possibly going into the realms of philosophical discussion with that one. We can only look at the facts in front of us, and that is that Rangers cheated to win their titles. You can’t go back and replay those seasons, so if you must re-award trophies (I’m not in favour of that) then you can only go with who finished runners up.

    However, I would wonder what sort of effect the awarding of 3-0 wins would have on the league, even in seasons where Rangers didn’t win the title. Would Celtic still have won so convincingly? I’m guessing without losses to Rangers, all of Hibs, Hearts, Kilmarnock and Livingston would be a lot closer to Celtic in several seasons in the noughties.

  41. Lord Wobbly says:

    stunney says:
    19/07/2012 at 3:25 am
    2 1 Rate This
    THURSDAY 19 JULY 2012
    Glasgow Cup proposed as vehicle for Old Firm fixture
    Michael Grant
    Chief football writer
    STAGING full-scale Old Firm games in this season’s Glasgow Cup
    will be discussed at a meeting of the Glasgow Football Association next week.
    The tournament has already been scheduled to continue as an
    under-17s event for the coming campaign but that has yet to be ratified by the Scottish Football Association.
    When the Glasgow FA holds a scheduled meeting next week,
    there will be talks on whether to seek a change to the
    competition in order to guarantee Celtic versus Rangers games at senior level in the coming months, assuming Rangers newco are granted SFA membership to play football at all.
    Changing any potential Celtic v Sevco Glasgow cup tie (not sure how that could possibly be deemed an ‘Old Firm’ game) from an under-17s event to a full fixture will serve to disproportionately aid Sevco. Financially, it would be absolutely massive for Charles Green and co but it would be just another game for Celtic. And, while Sevco may well be able to field an unchanged line-up, Celtic’s only real benefit would be to rest some of the players (hopefully) involved in European competition and to give some of the fringe players a run out.

    I realise Celtic’s charitable instincts are noteworthy, but I would urge Peter Lawwell to resist attempts to change the format from an under-17s event which gives the youngsters an excellent opportunity in their development.

  42. Stu says:


    Sorry, should have said that I actually agree with you. It doesn’t come across like that in my post!

  43. Frank Galvin says:

    I get my football from certain online sources. No need to line the pockets of the Murdoch’s and English football. 😉

  44. Still dubious says:

    In the Sala Grande of the Doge’s Palace in Venice, where there should be a portrait of Marin Falier, there is a black curtain. Falier was executed for treason – essentially of conspiring against the Republic.

    There’s no pretence that Falier wasn’t the Doge. Rather, the plain black curtain reminded his successors of the price that they would pay if they sought to become too powerful.

    Rangers is about to be executed, although Charles Green continues to try to harvest all its organs, including its rather black heart and enlarged bile duct, and the recipient, Sevco, shows no signs of life.

    In talking about the award of titles, post-mortem, every listing of Scottish football honours should have a clear statement along the lines “Between 1998 and 2011, Rangers FC systematically flouted the rules of all competitions that it entered. When the club’s membership of the SFA was rescinded in 2012, the extent of the clubs cheating required all honours that it had gained in that period to be removed, and all matches in which it had taken part to be recorded as defeats by three goals to nil.”

    It seems to me impossible to award any honour to any club – not least because in every year since the inception of the SPL, a club has been a member that should have been expelled. Every game played against Rangers should have been played against another team.

  45. ExiledCelt says:

    Here is a thing to ponder in the stripping of the titles and who it goes to….

    In the wake of the sheer spending power brought on by Rangers IA-NIL during the Murray years – fueled we thought by his fortune, now we know mostly by setting up a financial doping scheme that enables him to afford to sign more players due to friends at the bank giving him ODs and the EBT scheme that allowed him to pay more of these players once signed – as well as give “donations” to ex managers to sign players at infalted prices from him when needed or provide cheap imports if required.

    Without all this occurring it would have been a level playing field (if you exclude the influence he had in MSM and corridors of power – but leave that aside for now!)

    Celtic were the only team capable of even trying to remain in touch with them financially – and nearly killed themsleves tryign to do so – but thanks to Fergus and the fans putting their money into Celtic, they got out of the hole and kept within touching distance.

    None of the others in Scotland could have a hope of even being remotely close. Even the ones that went for it – Hearts, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Dundee Ut and Aberdeen – all suffered badly trying to stay on the horizon.

    We spent in the 80s what we had to spend to try to be better – if Murray had not done the illegal stuff, would Celtic have been spending the amounts to try to keep up? Or woudl we have been content as we had been before to complement our youth team prospects like Nichiolas, McStayand Aitken with the occasional signing.

    In the 80’s Aberdeen signed players that we offered less money to (Frank McDougal was an example), Dundee Utd hvng on to their players while Celtic signed players from Clydebank, Dumbarton or Motherwell with the odd big signing from abroad or England – like McGarvey or McGhee or McAvennie etc

    Without the doping, woudl we have been needing to be in such a bad state that Fergus may never have needed to be near Celtic……….who knows what the landscape would have been….

    To this extent – and I know I may upset some foks by saying this – we indirectly benefited a little by the Rangers financial doping in that we were able to become richer ourselves by trying to chase them – but – and I stress this – by completely legal and moral ways.

    We will never know who would have won or been in the top 6 based on this complete and utter cheating that was imposed on every single club in Scotland. Every single one is not a stretch because beforehand they were the feeder clubs for the top teams – that dried up with the imports…instead of Clyde or Falkirk getting money it went to other countries in the search for continental stars to dazzle the MSM and the readers.

    For these reasons, perhaps it is best to have “Not award cos Rangers cheated and SFA/SPL never noticed or bothered” next to each league title and cup stripped…….

  46. Lord Wobbly says:

    And to echo Stunney’s comment, my best wishes to St Johnstone in their forthcoming Europa League tie against Eskisehirspor.

  47. Justinian says:

    ExiledCelt says:
    19/07/2012 at 4:57 am

    Bit like hearing Kettering fans singing “we’ re by far the greatest team the world has ever seen…….”

    I look forward to the Brechin fixture….. I have a vision of massed Brechonians (or whatever the nomenclature is) singing out in that excellent East Coast accent…. the raised arm and pointy finger gig…. “Who are Ye?…. Who are Ye?” etc etc 🙂

    Apology to Yojimbo and other followers of the Gers. It is the saga which keeps on giving. A genuine mother lode of humour.

  48. Frank Galvin says:

    Private Land says:

    19/07/2012 at 1:53 am

    I think you are possibly going into the realms of philosophical discussion with that one. We can only look at the facts in front of us, and that is that Rangers cheated to win their titles. You can’t go back and replay those seasons, so if you must re-award trophies (I’m not in favour of that) then you can only go with who finished runners up.

    However, I would wonder what sort of effect the awarding of 3-0 wins would have on the league, even in seasons where Rangers didn’t win the title. Would Celtic still have won so convincingly? I’m guessing without losses to Rangers, all of Hibs, Hearts, Kilmarnock and Livingston would be a lot closer to Celtic in several seasons in the noughties.
    I don’t believe the difference would be so tangible as you think, PL. As I posted yesterday:

    1998-99 Celtic finished 14 points in front of St Johnstone.
    1999-2000 Celtic finished 15 points in front of Hearts.
    02-03 Celtic finished a whopping 34 points ahead of Hearts.
    04-05 Celtic finished 31 points ahead of Hibernian.
    08-09 Celtic finished 23 points ahead of Hearts.
    09-10 Celtic finished 18 points in front of Dundee United.
    10-11 Celtic finished 29 points in front of Hearts.

    At a push you could say that those first two titles just might be ‘close’. But Celtic would themselves have gained seven points in 98-99 (drawing twice with Rangers and being beaten once), and would have gained eleven points in 99-00 (after a draw and some heavy defeats).

  49. Andy Fitzpatrick says:

    It would be a valid question,, Who are ye?? what is there name in the 3rd?

  50. Stu says:

    Just gone back and had a look at previous SPL season. The funny thing is that if the losses that the 3rd placed side suffered against Rangers were turned into 3-0 wins, then there are several seasons where these sides would have finished closer to the winners (either Celtic or Rangers) than the runners up did, which perhaps gives lie to the statement that Celtic would win the league by Christmas or whatever without Rangers. Having said that, the last couple of seasons have seen the gap grow quite a bit…

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